Category Archives: Scattered Shots

The “Bloody Angle” Battle of Spotsylvania Couthouse

In the last year of of the US Civil war, US Grant had taken command of the Army and had began his   efforts to maneuver  R.E. Lee’s  Army of Northern Virginia into a position to be destroyed or taken.  After the efforts of the Wilderness, Grant learned why  “Old Mars Lee ” was so feared and respected by the men of the Army of the Potomac.

The series of attacks and counter attacks and  marched and counter marches  had brought both Armies to Spotsylvania.  As usual Lee had anticipated what Grant had in mind and had his men there to throw up earth works just in time.   The union army assaulted the CSA works numerous time to be repulsed.  A Junior Officer came up with a tactic designed to breach the Rebel line earlier in the battle and after showing promise it was decided to try again on a large scale.

After a rainy night delayed the attack, the Northern men assaulted In a sector of the rebel lines  known as the “The Mule Shoe”.,one of the most horrific 24 hours of the war took place. In  the 200  yard long   area that saw some of the heaviest and gruesome fighting , it became known as “The Bloody Angle”

 

The intense action took place at a section of a rebel salient known as the angle where the fighting reached an unprecedented level or savageness.  As the Union attacked and gained the  muddy works the close fighting became hand to hand.  The ground , already wet with the rain and now blood, churned under the feet of the soldiers of each side as they locked into combat.  The Lee re-enforced as Grant sent more until  a staggering amount of men crowded a small area fighting to break the line and to hold the line.

“Nothing can describe the confusion, the savage, blood-curdling yells, the murderous faces, the awful curses, and the grisly horror of the melee.”

The fighting in the bloody angle was non stop for near 24 hours before the CSA engineers  built up works 500 meter to the rear and the units withdrew unit by unit. The Unions troops completely exhausted and no doubt mentally shattered even if only temporary, withdrew from the taken by now useless works.

For those 24 hours in the angle, the veterans of the war had not seen anything like it.  Men fought hand to hand and fired at each other muzzle to muzzle.  Balls flew through the air like a swarm o bees. The wounded fell and as they tried to regain their feet became trampled down and into the mud by the men still fighting. sometimes 3 and four men deep.  Accounts of survivors tell of men brought up to a blood rage and fighting beyond  exhaustion. Some killing beyond their own physical limits but pushing on anyway. Blood lust seem to over take many of the men as they attempted to kill and maim with by any means.  All the while the fight taking place in mud. filth blood, body parts and internal organs spilled on the ground while the wounded and dead piled up.

This went on for 24 hours before the battle ended.  Those in it or saw it never forget it.

Horace Porter,  a member of Grant’s  “military family”wrote of it later.

“The appalling sight presented was harrowing in the extreme. Our own killed were scattered over a large space near the “angle,” while in front of the captured breastworks the enemy’s dead, vastly more numerous than our own, were piled upon each other in some places four layers deep, exhibiting every ghastly phase of mutilation. Below the mass of fast-decaying corpses, the convulsive twitching of limbs and the writhing of bodies showed that there were wounded men still alive and struggling to extricate themselves from the horrid entombment. Every relief possible was afforded, but in too many cases it came too late. The place was well named the “Bloody Angle.”

One story that always turns up of accounts of the fight is of the unbelievable amount of firepower used during the fight. Tells of all the trees standing cut down by musket balls. Then those felled trees further getting shot up until nothing was left of them bigger than a match book.   One tree that was noticed by all during the fight was a large oak hit by so many minnie balls, that nothing of it remained but a 22 inch stump.    The stump was saved after the battle by a local and found its way later into the Smithsonian.  That stump pictured above.   The remains  of a large strong oak reduced to a stump attest to the wall of lead those men fought in.  You could say there was more lead in the air than oxygen and I doubt vets of the fight would think it a joke.

 

 

 

Photo above is from Smithsonian.   Obviously I have let out much of the details just  to take a look at the stump and some of the horrible hand to hand slaughter that produced it, The battle was part of a much larger story of the campaign  and  is as compelling as all  of the Civil War and the men who fought it.  I   recommend further reading for a full appreciation of the fight because this post barely starts to scratch the surface.

 

The Civil War A Narrative , Foote

Clouds of Glory,  Korda

Campaigning with Grant, Porter

 

 

Kevin O’Brien ( AKA “Hognose” of weaponsman.com ) Our Departed Friend

Tonight we learned something we had feared was coming over the last few days.  Kevin O’Brien,  known to most of his readers as Hognose, has passed away.  Kevin’s brother updated his brother’s website a few days ago with news that his brother was in bad condition in the hospital and gave an email address for people who knew Kevin more than as a reader of his website.  The details received privately had us greatly worried.  With no sign of recovery his family did what most would want their families to do, let Kevin pass on peacefully.

Kevin’s website weaponsman.com was started almost at the same time as this website, and we have been following him since the start and vice versa. Kevin wrote about us in his “Weapons website of the week ” column and the track back is how we found him.   He said many nice things about our work on his website and it was much appreciated at a time when this site was a two man show.

I got to know Kevin a little more personally via emails thanks to the introduction made by Daniel. I often would send Kevin copies of pictures I  or one of the others took at industry shows and he was usually the first person I shared new gun news with or inside info. I was glad to get to know him better.

If you have not read his website, please do so.  His brother has announced he will take it down soon and much will be lost. If you are not one of his regular readers, you don’t know what you are missing.  In my opinion his was the best gun blog on the web.  He did not do reviews or have the same format as us, but his site was a true blog and it is very  entertaining, It is filled with vast technical data on many weapons and has stories told from Kevin’s long  Army career as he was a Special Forces ( Green Beret).  The name of the site came from his job in the SF “weaponsman” among other things he did in the Army,   “WeaponsMan is a blog about weapons. Primarily ground combat weapons, primarily small arms and man-portable crew-served weapons. The site owner is a former Special Forces weapons man (MOS 18B, before the 18 series, 11B with Skill Qualification Indicator of S), and you can expect any guest columnists to be similarly qualified.”

Some of his most darkly funny posts are the “when guns are outlawed then only  outlaws will have , knive, poison, trucks, pillows, gravity etc etc.,  He would often end those posts with something like “Hug your loved ones tight as you never know when it may be the last time.”   Sadly this is true for all and we lost Kevin all too soon.

I am going to miss Kevin.  I spent a lot of time on his website reading and commenting , If you go there you will most always see a comment from me or Daniel in the comment section of nearly every post.  Indeed is commenters are often subject experts   themselves and were always well behaved and spoken,  It was like the barbershop for firearms and military vets and firearms historians to go hang out at instead of working on their own stuff.

We hope Kevin has found peace, and we offer our condolences to Kevin’s Brother and Father and offer whatever assistance we can give if we can some how help ease their grief,.

Below is the post from his brother and a link.  If his brother updates with more info we will try to edit and add it to this post.

Good bye Kevin, we are all diminished.

www.weaponsman.com

 

Kevin O’Brien

I’m sorry to have to tell you all that my brother Kevin O’Brien, host of this blog, passed away peacefully this morning at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston.

Let me start with some housekeeping.  First, the email address hognosecommunity@comcast.net remains active and you may get more and better updates there.  I say this because frankly I’m having trouble posting here.  I don’t know Kevin’s WordPress password and I’m afraid that if I restart his computer, I will not be able to post any more because the password will not autofill.  Therefore I can’t guarantee I will be able to make more updates on the blog.

We are planning a celebration of Kevin’s life for all of his friends some time in early to mid-June, here in Seacoast NH.  I will have details in a couple of days.  All those who knew and loved Kevin, including all Weaponsman readers, are welcome, but we will need an RSVP.  Again, I will make details available to those who write to hognosecommunity@comcast.net.  This is not restricted to personal friends of Kevin, but space will be limited, and we will not be able to fit everyone.  It will be a great opportunity to share memories of Kevin.

We will be looking for stories and pictures of Kevin!  Please send to the email address.

I expect that some time after the celebration, I will be shutting down the blog.  No one other than Kevin could do it justice.

Finally, you should know that Small Dog, whose real name is Zac, has found a home with other relatives of ours.  Of course the poor guy has no idea what has happened to his beloved friend but his life will go on.

Now I’d like to tell you more about Kevin and how he lived and died.  He was born in 1958 to Robert and Barbara O’Brien.  We grew up in Westborough, Mass.  Kevin graduated from high school in 1975 and joined the Army in (I believe) 1979.  He learned Czech at DLI and became a Ranger and a member of Special Forces.

Kevin’s happiest times were in the Army.  He loved the service and was deeply committed to it.  We were so proud when he earned the Green Beret.  He was active duty for eight years and then stayed in the Reserves and National Guard for many years, including a deployment to Afghanistan in 2003.  He told me after that that Afghan tour was when he felt he had made his strongest contribution to the world.

Kevin worked for a number of companies after leaving active duty.  He had always loved weapons, history, the military, and writing, and saw a chance to combine all of his interests by creating Weaponsman.com.  I think the quality of the writing was what always brought people back.  Honestly, for what it’s worth, I have no interest in firearms.  Don’t love them, don’t hate them, just not interested.  But Kevin’s knowledge and writing skill made them fascinating for me.

Kevin and I really became close friends after our childhood.  We saw each other just about every day after he moved to a house just two miles away from mine.  In the winter of 2015, we began building our airplane together.  You could not ask for a better building partner.

Last Thursday night was our last “normal” night working on the airplane.  I could not join him Friday night, but on Saturday morning I got a call from the Portsmouth Regional Hospital.  He had called 911 on Friday afternoon and was taken to the ER with what turned out to be a massive heart attack.  Evidently he was conscious when he was brought in, but his heart stopped and he was revived after 60 minutes of CPR.  He never reawakened.

On Saturday, he was transported to Brigham and Women’s where the medical staff made absolutely heroic efforts to save his life.  Our dad came up on Sunday and we visited him Sunday, Monday, and today.  Each day his condition became worse.

As of last night, it was obvious to everyone that he had almost no chance of survival; and that if he did by some chance survive, he would have no quality of life.  Kevin’s heart was damaged beyond repair, his kidneys were not functioning, he had not regained consciousness, and he had internal bleeding that could not be stopped.  We made the decision this morning to terminate life support.

I’m not crying tonight.  I got that out on Saturday.  What I feel is a permanent alteration and a loss that I know can never be healed.  I loved Kevin so much.  He was brilliant, funny, helpful, kind, caring, and remarkably talented.

At dinner tonight, we agreed that there are probably many people who never “got” Kevin, but there could not be anyone who disliked him.  Rest in Peace.

Please feel free to express your thoughts in the comments and to the hognosecommunity@comcast.net email address

 

Lesser known instructors.

Article submitted by Mark Hatfield.
Update:
I want to apologize to Doc Kibbey.   In my article regarding him I wrote that he did an event using Airsoft equipment.  That is not correct.  Doc was using and demonstrating UTM Non Lethal Training Ammunition and conversions.  It was very interesting.  This equipment allows the user to easily convert their own actual firearm to one used against masked and padded training partners.  This allows a greater degree of realism in training over other methods. It seemed a little pricey to me for use by the average guy but does have benefits over that of other gear for this purpose.  It might be very good for police and military use.  After practice, the guns can be quickly return to their regular configuration.  All safety precautions apply here as with any similar mode of training.  UTM.
The last few years I have had the opportunity to attend a goodly number of firearms and related courses. Some of these I have written about, and there were many more of which I should have written about but alas I am under no requirement to do so and am getting lazier in my old age.
While studying under ‘big name’ nationally recognized instructors is great, sometimes there are others who are worth being given ‘a shot’, so to speak.  A problem currently, is that the ‘market’ is flooded with instructors and ‘wanna be’ instructors.  I witnessed one who was especially bad and what was worse was that his students were so new that they didn’t know he was bad.  For those who have not seen this short article it is elsewhere on this webpage.  Many of these ‘teachers’, new to the task, may often have been former military or law enforcement.  What they are teaching may not really be relevant to the average guy.  The class might be lots of fun, you learn new and interesting things, but they are things which may not apply to you, things which may never be useful to you.  Or the methods taught may work only with specific equipment or only if you take them to a high level of skill.  The teachers may be knowledgeable and skilled at their art but that does not automatically mean that they are good at transferring that knowledge to you.  Remember the difference between the pro athlete and the coach.  The pro might or might not make a good coach.  The coach played that sport, maybe not at a pro level, but can bring others to that level.
Today I want to mention C.R. Williams and ‘Doc’ Kibbey.
C.R., I have seen off and on for several years when attending classes by the big boys.  I have never attended any classes taught by him but have attended a ‘training group’ weekend which he organized and orchestrated.  He has written four books, the first three of which have been consolidated into one.  I have purchased these and find them to be quite similar to what I might have written.  One of the things which I respect about C.R. is that he teaches only what he knows and is confident of.  This is in contrast to some in the business. who try to determine what paying customers want, then try to learn enough about it to claim to teach it.
C.R. is located in Alabama but sometimes travels.  His business is In Shadow In Light.  (www.inshadowinlight.com)     His books are:  ‘Gunfighting, and other Thoughts about doing Violence’  (vol. 1-3 combined), and number 4, ‘Facing the Active Shooter’.  This last one is updated annually.  The books are worth buying.
Pierce Kibbey, I’ve only met recently, it was at an event given by C.R.  ‘Doc’ (a title we once both shared) organized scenarios using Airsoft equipment  For those not familiar, Airsoft guns use air powered plastic pellets so that (while wearing suitable protective gear) participants can simulate actual defensive situations against other participants.    While the situations we did were well thought, what especially impressed me was his insistence on debriefings of the participants:  ‘What did you see, What did you hear, At what point did you decide to…?, etc.  Previously, ‘Doc’ Kibbey and I spend a couple hours one evening comparing our military experiences and discussing how we got to where we are.
Kibbey has a business called PRACTICs, which is located in central Florida (www.practicsinc.com).  He offers more than just another ‘how to shoot the gun’ training.  Simply participating in scenarios organized by Doc Kibbey was enough to show me that he is not simply a teacher but a teacher who thinks, there is a difference.
C.R. in Alabama, Doc in Florida, both are worth looking into and more than just a little consideration.

RPRs, Cerakote, and Podcasts

 

IGroup from RPG

I think the Ruger Precision Rifle will be a keeper.  I think this is good start.

Burnt Bronze Cerakote PredatAR

Had my friend Jeremy Paynter over at Gulf Coast Armory Cerakote my PredatAR upper burnt bronze to match my FDE anodized Colt lower.  I took a few pictures but they didn’t really turn out well and do the job justice.  Once I get a better picture I’ll post up a hi-res one.

Also Shawn and I recorded the first episode of the Loose Rounds podcast.  Once I figure out how we are going to handle hosting and the like, I’ll have it up so you all can listen to us mangle the English language.  If you have any questions you would like us to discuss in the future, reply to this post or put them on our Facebook page.

First impressions of the Ruger Precision Rifle

Shortly after the Ruger Precision Rifle (RPR) first came out, a close friend of mine asked me what I thought about it.  I’m pretty sure my response was something like, “Ruger is not generally associated with precision”

Later, much to my surprise, when I was talking to my VA doctor he pulled out targets he had shot with his RPR and he had some pretty impressive groups.  I started reading about the rifle and found most everything I was reading was saying that the RPR is pretty outstanding.  So when I saw one in 6.5 Creedmore for sale at Gulf Coast Armory I had to pick it up.

Ruger Precision Rifle

Sadly, I don’t have ammunition for it yet, so I haven’t gotten to see its true worth yet.  But that has given me some time to pull it apart and examine it.

Overall I am very impressed with the rifle.  I have the Gen 2 RPR that comes with a different handguard, muzzle brake, and aluminum bolt shroud.  Sadly the Gen 2 rifles are $200 more then the older ones, and I think I would have preferred to have the Gen 1.

It looks like Ruger’s initial plan was to make a 1000 yard gun at $1000 dollars.  The rifle is packed full of features that you don’t see elsewhere.  The ability to use AR15 handguards and grips , A folding adjustable stock that can be replaced with any AR15 stock, a good adjustable trigger, threaded hammer forged 5R barrel.  The barrel can be removed with an AR15 barrel wrench.  20 MOA rail, etc.

Lots of features.  Now to get all that in that price, the rifle does have plenty of machining marks and a few sharp edges.  I think the lack of perfect fit and finish is a negligible price to pay compared to what all else you are getting.  However if you are a perfectionist, this may not be for you.

Ruger Precision Rifle CAD

Stock:

The RPR comes with a carbine buffer tube installed with a fully adjustable stock.  Length of Pull, Cheek Riser height, can be adjusted along with the ability to cant the recoil pad.  It also include a couple of places to attach a QD swivel.  I really like this stock, but I find if you are trying to quickly make an adjustment it will bind up.  Very adjustable, but not quick to adjust.

Safety:

I really like that the RPR uses an AR15 safety with a reduced throw, about 45 degrees.  Sadly this safety seems like it was added almost as an afterthought.  While fully functional, it is kind of loose and actuating it feels sloppy.  Instead of using a detent and spring like on the AR15, Ruger just relies on friction and a wire spring to hold the safety in place.  When I had my rifle disassembled I found the Ruger safety looked like a rough investment casting coated with the cheapest black spray paint available.  I swapped it out for an extra Colt safety I had laying around and that greatly reduced the slop and play in the safety.  At some point I intend to get an Ambi safety for this rifle.

Handguard:

The Gen 1 rifles came with a keymod handguard with a full top rail.  This interfered with some scopes that have a large objective lens.  The newer RPR have a keymod handguard that omits that top rail.  Some claim that you can put ANY AR15 handguard on the RPR, but that simply isn’t the case.  Between the RPR receive and the hand guard nut, is the RPR’s barrel nut, which is about .2 inches long.  This prevent any AR15 rail that uses the AR15 upper for alignment from fitting correctly.  Some companies, like Midwest Industries and Seekins have made new handguards specifically for this Ruger rifle.

Muzzle Break:

Ruger Precision Rifle Muzzle Break

The muzzle break was added as part of the $200 upgrade on the Gen 2 rifles.  First was that mine was installed crooked.  This break is covered in burrs and looks like someones first machining project.  I’ve already pulled it off as I intend to mount a Surefire Silencer.  This is the only part of the rifle I really feel is unacceptable.

I am really excited about this rifle.  I am looking forward to seeing what I can do with it.21

Addressing the layoffs at Colt.

I was going to make a post about this myself, but  Hunter at rangehot.com said everything I was going to say.   A lot of “fake news” on the subject is going around this week and almost none of it is close to accurate . 

Addressing the layoffs at Colt.

By Hunter Eliot   www.rangehot.com

I need everyone to calm down and take a breath. Please do me a favor and do not buy into the blogs that are running articles full of false speculation and reality TV like drama. As a matter of fact I am a bit disgusted at them, and you know who you are, trying to invent turmoil just for blog hits.

Yes, I know Colt laid off a couple of people and I was aware of this a week ago. The reason I did not address it as it really is not the mountain the blogs are trying to make out of this molehill. I am friends with some of the people that were laid off and I truly hate that for them and Colt BUT this is not the apocalypse people would have you believe. It is no secret the gun industry is slow. Now that Trump has been elected people are not so fearful of  losing their gun rights and are not panic buying, as a matter of fact people are not buying guns at the rate they have been for some eight years.

Companies had to drastically ramp up staff  to keep up with the demand, and now that demand has gone and left a vacuum in it’s place. I am assuming you all don’t go in full panic mode when people hired for the Christmas season at your favorite store are let go after the first of the year. This is the same principal. There are a number of other manufactures, such as Remington, that have also laid off employees for the exact same reason and yet none of those other blogs have addressed that. Have the gun blogs turned to fake news as well as an attempt to keep readership up in slow times? If so, just do a damn gun review or something and quite trying to undermine the industry. We are all in this together so if you want to help go out and buy a gun or at the very least stop spreading rumors and inflated speculation. All that does is hurt the industry we are supposed to be defending. I am reminded of a quote from Benjamin Franklin when he signed The Declaration of Independence, “We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” So shame on those who would attempt to dramatize this for traffic

Addressing the layoffs at Colt.

DI Optical’s RV1 Review: Thinking Outside the Box with a Box

Aimpoint is the only serious dot sight that anyone recommends anymore, right? Right. With the death of EOTECH’s reputation, we are left with option A for a serious duty ready red dot sight. Well, that would be the case had not D I Optical stepped into the American market. Can DIO fill the gap and bring in a quality product that gives consumers a second option to consider aside from Aimpoint?

New to the Market, Not New to the Game

If you aren’t familiar with DIO, the RV1 is the Americanized version of their service rifle red dot sight, and DIO has been making red dots of all sizes for years. See NSN# 1005-01-626-1714 for their Heavy Machine Gun Sight which is in service here stateside.

My first hands on impression with DIO was with their RV1 red dot, which I reviewed at my own blog a few weeks ago. Reaching out to DIO to show them that I beat their little red dot up and it survived, they propositioned me to beat on their EG1 red dot like I did to the RV1. I agreed.

So I took it out to the ranch, sighted in off the co-witnessed iron sights, and got to work. I threw it down multiple times, and attempted to drown it several times, and did my best to make it break. No dice. No Drama. The dot stayed on and nothing construction wise was amiss. The only problem I encountered was a loosening of the mount screws… and this was a self-made problem. I should have loc-tited it down before I even mounted it. I know better. Once I noticed that it was loosening, I ran into my shop, torqued the screws back into place, and my zero came back, and I kept on shooting. (PS: My Geiselle Mk4’s screws also started to loosen, so keep that in mind. Yes, I beat my gun that bad testing the EG1).

So with the beating, the drowning, and the overall slapping around, the EG1 performed like a red dot should… bright and always on. One of the key features of the optic is the unique form factor. As you can see, it is a square body with a square-ish 28mm lens. This unique configuration is made possible due to the prism assembly which allows the emitter to be smack dab in the base of the optic. As the emitter shines upward from the base, it is redirected by the prism to the shooter and it allows the DIO to maximize lens real estate without the emitter assembly getting in the way. Thinking outside the box with a box. It’s just crazy enough to work. I like it.

It features a battery life of 5000 hours at a medium setting… lets see, 15 total brightness settings divided by two… well let’s call that setting 8, we will round-up. The side of the optic has the windage and elevation adjustments and comes with a handy tool to adjust them, though a dime would work just the same.

It’s also mil-std 810G environment tested so we have some certification that we are getting a optic which passes some testing standards unlike many of the Chinese products on the market today. The mount itself is held in place by two hex screws, and they are big and beefy. The optic is compatible with ARMS #17 style mounts, so you have plenty of options for trading out the finger knob.

The sun shades are removable, so you can enhance the view even more. I noted that the optic is not sensitive to placement. There isn’t a “tube effect” like the Comp M4 or the mini RDS when they are mounted too close to the eye. The EG1 is just a wide open eye box. I ran it close to the rear BUIS to reduce over-the-shoulder sun glare if the heat was at my 6.

SO OVERALL

Impressions are good. This optic retails for just north of $400 bones and that is precisely in Aimpoint Pro territory. For a relative newcomer to the US market, the EG1 represents a very different approach to the RDS and its use of a prismatic assembly to widen the field of view is a novel concept. With my two DIO red dots in hand, I must say that I have started to recommend them on the forums I haunt. I hope to see more of DIO’s products in the future, and hopefully they can continue to innovate in the red dot market and add some much needed competition.

HighCom 20th Anniversary Giveaway

Highcom is running a giveaway until next month.  A great chance to pick up some rifle plates.   Details below. You may remember we think very highly of HighCom plates and carriers.

To celebrate 20 years in business we’re giving away 20 Rifle Armor Kits to 20 LE Officers! Enter below for a chance to SUPPORT your local law enforcement department and DONATE (5) Rifle Armor Kits to the department of your choice!

Prize – DONATED to LAW ENFORCEMENT agency on your behalf:

  • (5) Trooper CAP Carriers
  • (10) Guardian 4s17 NIJ 0101.06 Certified Level IV Plates
  • Total of (4) Winners

Giveaway Details: A total of (4) winners will be selected each Friday at noon EST and announced on social media. Each winner will have (5) kits donated on their behalf to a US law enforcement agency. Each donation includes (5) Trooper CAP Carriers and (10) Guardian 4s17 NIJ 0101.06 Certified Level IV Plates (valued at $2,285 per prize or $457 per kit). 

Show your law enforcement agency that you care about their safety! Let’s get 20 kits out to 20 of our finest men and women in blue!

http://highcomsecurity.com/pages/giveaway

Check your zero on QD mounts.

MK12MOD1

Now I am no fan of ARMS mounts, so I’m pretty biased about that.  I have this MK12MOD1 upper where I use the period correct ARMS 12H rings.  I generally try not to remove QD scopes unless I have to, especially so with ARMS mounts.

On Saturday I found that after having removed the scope and reattached it previously, my zero had shifted 4 inches left at 100 yards.  I figured this was a fluke and seemed excessive even for ARMS, so I removed the scope, cleaned the upper and mounting point on the scope rings, and remounted it.  That moved the group 2 inches right and an inch down.

Quick detach mounts are awesome, but make sure if you use one, that it does return to zero.   I am going to stick with Larue mounts on any of my serious use ARs.